Hi Orangelime. Welcome to the forum.

I'm not a doctor nor am I an expert on asbestos. However, this question pops up regularly on this forum. 

The asbestos in Artex was Chrysotile, or white asbestos, and it made up about 2% of the mix. Whilst white asbestos cannot be called "safe", it is definitely the least hazardous form.  Furthermore the body will naturally clear out a small number of white asbestos fibres over time.  The low concentration of asbestos means that the number of fibres released will be quite low if you cut or drill it, with many fibres remaining trapped in the other 98% of material that fell to the floor and got swept up. 

You asked about the risk to your family.  Perhaps not surprisingly, there are no figures for the number of people who have died due to exposure to asbestos in decorative products.  However in 2016 there were 2,197 male deaths and 398 female deaths from mesothelioma. I hate to use gender stereotyping, but I suspect that few of those women were exposed at work, which means they must have been exposed to asbestos elsewhere. In the home, perhaps?  Now 398 sounds a lot, but to put it in context, 3500 people die in the home each year from simple accidents; 1800 die each year in road accidents; 1500 die from accidental poisoning; 1500 die each year from falling in the home; 5-10 die each year putting on their socks.  

So, although you're kicking yourself that you disturbed the material, you have done what most other householders (including me!) have done at some time - disturbed the Artex in the ceiling and possibly breathed in the fibres. But the extra risk to your family appears to be minimal and definitely nothing to panic about. It most certainly isn't a death warrant that will be hanging over everyone's head for years to come. You're getting expert advice on what to do next, but maybe sealing the damaged areas and being more asbestos aware is all that you'll need to do. Almost certainly removing the Artex would be more dangerous than leaving it in place and keeping it properly sealed. 

I'll also add one further point. Smoking and asbestos are a lethal combination. If you or any of your family are smokers, then now might be a good time to quit. 

So I guess the take home message is Don't Panic. 

Thank you for this. Really appreciate you replying. I do feel reassured now! 

Glad to help.  I live in a home built in the early 1980s with Artex ceilings. For a long time I was unaware of any danger, so I drilled holes etc, so when I realised there might be a problem, I researched around the topic and found out most of what I told you.

My town is a "dormitory" town for the nearby big city, and most housing was built around that time. I've been looking for reports of asbestosis among the residents and found none.  

I'd be really interested to hear what results and guidance you get from your specialist.  Please would you share with us? 

Hi, I am really worried about some asbestos I have been exposed to.

Our ceiling collapsed and the artex in our ceiling crumbled and created a lot of dust. We hoovered and swept it up not knowing it was asbestos. We got it tested and it turned out to be asbestos. Since it was the pandemic, it was hard finding anyone to come out and plaster over this huge hole. We were exposed to this for about four weeks as it was in our living room. Is this dangerous and will it harm me? I know the percentage in artex is low but I am really concerned it has impacted my health and I will get a deadly illness in the future.

There was also a hole in my bedroom ceiling in my artex ceiling. I did not realise it was asbestos so I never bothered to get it checked, but it has been there for two years and I am really worried about the potential harm it has done. I got it tested and it came back positive for asbestos. It has now been sealed but I am worried about the harm it has done.

Will these experiences harm me later down the line and should I be worried?

Hi.  You don't need to worry at all.  We have been in a similar situation to you and have spoken directly to some leading experts in asbestos management and asbestos-related respiratory diseases.  Happy to pass on the details what we learnt if you want to contact me directly, but the bottom line is that there is no risk whatsoever from your situation. 

One of the key bits of info was that to inhale enough asbestos to reach the legal safe limit, you'd need to spend 250 years continuously scraping artex and breathing in all the dust with no mask or protection.

Just seen your post and am concerned myself as just erected a wardrobe in my sons room and had to drill a number of holes into the ceiling. I had no idea that artex had asbestosnin and our house was built in 1970 so the prime time. I would really appreciate it is you could pass on the information you talk about it your post that you got.

Thanks 

Rachael

Hi Rachael

No worries.  We were worried about work we had done (that disturbed a LOT more artex than just drilling a few holes) without knowing about the asbestos (we had it tested afterwards and it was positive, so was definitely asbestos).  We decided the only way to stop ourselves worrying was to get expert advice.  We contacted three people who very kindly took the time to speak to us:

1. Specialist asbestos removal company:

Said that if we wanted them to, they could come and clear up any dust, but there was absolutely no reason to for health reasons.  The asbestos in artex is a very low concentration, it's very well bonded into the stuff it's mixed with so the fibres are not easy to release. He said honestly, really, don't worry about it in the slightest.  Note that most asbestos removal companies will tell you the opposite - their industry depends on scaring people into paying for their services.  We were lucky to find one that was honest.

2.  Professor of occupational and environmental respiratory disease

Said that there are a number of conditions linked to asbestos exposure, but most of them require many many years of industrial exposure.  The one exception to this is mesothelioma.  However, even though you don't need many years of exposure to get it from asbestos, you do need a "significant" exposure.  "Significant" in this context has been determined to be a minimum of 3 months, 8 hours a day, face down on the bench breathing in blue asbestos.  Futhermore, the asbestos in artex is Chrisotile which is "far far far" less toxic than the blue and the brown asbestos.  If we try to correlate that with the exposure we’re likely to get at home, we’re “absolutely nowhere near it”.  It’s “entirely right” for us not to be worried.

3. Expert on asbestos and hazardous materials - owns a consultancy and acts as an expert witness in asbestos-related court cases

Talked about how much asbestos there is in the environment anyway - it was used in pretty much all government buildings (hospitals, schools etc) for many years.  It’s in car brake pads which gets turned to dust in the atmosphere near roads.  60% of people in the UK have asbestos fibres in their lungs.  If you remove the rural areas and look at the major cities, 100% of people have asbestos in their lungs.  Yet only 2000 people a year die due to asbestos.  So this dispels the “one fibre will kill you” rubbish.  Studies have been done to determine the level of exposure under which it’s “highly improbable” that you’d get an asbestos-related illness (25 fibre years/ml).  The HSE have found that scraping off an artex ceiling whilst breathing in the dust generates between 0.01 and 0.1 fibres/ml.  Assume the worst case of 0.1 fibres/ml.  If you did this for one year constantly, you’d expose yourself to 0.1 fibre years/ml.  If you did it for 10 years, you’d have a total exposure of 1 fibre year/ml.  Therefore you’d need to scrape artex ceilings constantly (“8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 46 weeks a year”) for 250 years, breathing in all the dust, with no mask or extraction, to reach a total exposure of 25 fibre years/ml.  The real risk we (or our children) have been exposed to is “absolutely nothing at all - no risk at all”.

They were long phone calls and there was a lot more background info and explanations so feel free to ask me any more questions, but the main points I’ve listed should be enough to put your mind at rest I hope.

Thank you so much for your detailed response and yes it has really put my mind at rest.  I have anxiety issues so stuff like this really throws me so its much appreciated that you have put the time aside to give me all the information (particularly when searches on the internet scared the hell out of me !!)

Thank you so much :)

Rachael

More than happy to help.  I was in your position until I spoke to these people so it feels good to be able to pass on the knowledge they gave me and help someone else.

Googling is REALLY bad - there is so much wrong information, mainly driven by the "one asbestos fibre is enough to give you lung cancer" rubbish - "no exposure is safe" etc.  The expert we spoke to is disgusted by the asbestos removal industry in general - it's in their interested to peddle the terror, and that gets picked up by the media and other people on the internet.

Jak,

Im sorry for contacting you again after you supplied such brilliant infromation last week for me.  I was really reassured by the infomration you provided and realised that drilling a few holes in the artex was really not such a big deal but after getting quite anxious about asbestos generally over the weekend and looking round the house for all jobs we have done over the years I remembered that my father replaced our downlight in our downstairs toilet and drilled a 4inch diameter hole in the artex ceiling as well as removing the old light and repairing the hole.  He did it when me and my husband were away for the weekend so dont know how close my children were or even if they were helping him and it was a number of years ago so dont want to really bring it up with him.  I dont really know how much dust was created.  I know you spoke to the leading asbestos experts and I am assuming that the same advice you gave me last week would still apply to this situation as the same amount of asbestos would be released when drilling a large hole as it would if it was scraped (as in your example).  I'm really sorry for hassling you again, I know I am worrying over nothing but my anxiety does not stop me from doing it !

Thanks

Jak,

Im sorry for contacting you again after you supplied such brilliant infromation last week for me.  I was really reassured by the infomration you provided and realised that drilling a few holes in the artex was really not such a big deal but after getting quite anxious about asbestos generally over the weekend and looking round the house for all jobs we have done over the years I remembered that my father replaced our downlight in our downstairs toilet and drilled a 4inch diameter hole in the artex ceiling as well as removing the old light and repairing the hole.  He did it when me and my husband were away for the weekend so dont know how close my children were or even if they were helping him and it was a number of years ago so dont want to really bring it up with him.  I dont really know how much dust was created.  I know you spoke to the leading asbestos experts and I am assuming that the same advice you gave me last week would still apply to this situation as the same amount of asbestos would be released when drilling a large hole as it would if it was scraped (as in your example).  I'm really sorry for hassling you again, I know I am worrying over nothing but my anxiety does not stop me from doing it !

Thanks

Hi Rachael.  No problem at all!  

The work we did a few years ago involved moving a wall between the kids' bedrooms (thereby disurbing the ceilings), moving the ceiling lights in their rooms (involving cutting new holes for the new locations), and cutting a massive hole for a skylight approx 1m x 0.5m, right outside the kids' bedrooms.  When we did this, we were unaware of the presence of the asbestos and did nothing about the dust.

More recently, we've pulled down a whole ceiling without realising it contained asbestos.  We've got a specialist company to come in and get rid of the debris (which we organised as soon as we realised it contained asbestos), but not before the dust has had a chance to get all around the house.

The specialists we spoke to knew about all of this (which is FAR more than the one large hole and a few small holes that you have drilled) when we talked to them, and the bottom line was that there really is nothing to worry about.  

I can relate to your anxiety issues somewhat, and know that it can be really hard to convince your brain to assess risk properly, no matter how much evidence you present it with.

Feel free to ask me anything else you like!

Thank you again, I really appriciate the time you have taken to reassure me and it does certainly sound like you took a lot of time to speak to some real experts who clearly know more than "Google".  I don't think I would even know where to start to find the right people to talk to so very thankful that you have done it for me !!

Thanks

Rachael

Hi jak99, so far you are the only one giving me a little hope again with your comments. I am trying to add you as a friend hoping i can chat with you about this.. im still not completely relieved.. please..

Hi - feel free to add me as a friend!  I will happily help to reassure you if i can!

Thank you. I just added you. Im so worried now. This anxiety is the worst one i have as it involves my whole family. . I want to have a chat with you if you dont mind. I want to regain my self back for my family.. i havent told about my wife about it. I dont want her to worry like me. It wont be good for my children if we are like this.

Feel free to message me privately- happy to talk to you!

Hi. Ive sent you private message.. thanks

Hi,

Someone posted a link to this thread on a diy forum to try and put my mind at rest.  Have had an asbestos related event that has been casuing me non stop stress and anxiety since last Thursday when it happened, have been googling continually and beating myself up for the events that happened.

I was out side chatting to builder when carpenter on second storey used a jig saw to cut through softfit, made two cuts that were quick through about combined 80cm of what turned out to be a cement based asbestos board, since had it tested and showed Chrysotile asbestos.  I guess I was about 10m away at ground level, there wasn't a lot of wind.  They then proceeded to throw the board down into dumper truck where board broke up into pieces as I was about 5m away.

Looked up the amount of fibres released by jigsaw and is 2-10 fm/l - considereably more than dealing with artex.  What I don't know is are those fibres still bound up with the cement or are they the microscopic fibres that break free.

I have been stressing out on two counts, the first is how many fibres got to me, guess will never know, not really worried about me but the thing I will never be able to get over is I didn't change my clothes or shower.  I then proceded to pick kids up from school, do dinner and put them both to bed with loads of hugs, it was only when had a bit of time after to google I realised how stupid I had been.  I'll be honest I haven't really slept since, have never felt so anxious about anything.  Have read how the fibres cling to clothing and can then be released and breathed in, the children are tiny and were both laying on me at one point.

Second count of stress that is less reasonable is my childrens bedroom window is right next to cut was made, they were closed but are old wooden windows and the seals are okay but not great, really worried microscopic fibres got in the room.

I so wish I could have got builders to pause and not cut softfits. 

I really do not know where to turn as the thought that harmed children is eating me up.

Lawrence

Hi Lawrence

Sorry to hear about your stresses - I can relate to how you are feeling!

I am no expert, but I have spoken to experts on the phone to try to get rid of my own anxieties (see my earlier posts in this thread).  Based on those conversations, this is how I would think about your situation:

The total lifetime exposure to consider is 25 fibre years/ml.  In other words, if you were exposed to a concentration of 25 fibres/ml, you would have to be exposed to it for a full working year for it to be considered significant.

Let's assume that they spent 1 hour cutting through the board.  I would imagine it was a lot less (probably closer to 3 or 4 minutes), so 1 hour should be more than the worst case scenario.  Let's also assume that the fibres released were the worst case of 10 fibres/ml.  

Let's assume the absolutely completely unrealistic case of someone breathing in all the fibres that were released from cutting the board.  That would equate to an exposure of 10 fibres/ml for 1 hour.  There are 1840 working hours in a year (8 hours/d, 5, days/week, 46 week/year).  25 fibre years / ml is equivalent to 25 x 1840 = 46,000 fibre hours / ml.  The exposure from breathing in ALL the fibres generated from spending an hour cutting through the board is 10 fibres/ml x 1 hour = 10 fibre hours / ml, i.e. 1/4600th of the significant threshold - in other words, you would need to repeat your experience 4,600 times to get a significant exposure. 

Now, remember that that calculation is based on the completely unrealistic scenario of someone breathing in ALL the fibres.  I was told that the fibres are so light that the slightest bit of draft will have them up in the air and away with the airflow.  Given that you were outside and several metres away from the cutting, I would imagine that probably far less than 1% of the fibres ended up on your clothes.  Even if it didn't feel like a windy day, there will obviously have been some air movement!  Let's be pessimistic again and say that 10% of the fibres ended up on your clothes - that still means that someone would need to breathe in all the fibres from your clothes 46,000 times to reach the significant exposure threshold.

If you read my earlier posts too, hopefully the info in there will also reassure you.  It reassured me when I was in your situation!

Hope that helps!

Thanks ever so much for taking the time to reply, I really do appreciate it.  I have been reading an unhealthy amount of information on the subject and did speak to couple of people in industry today and there does seem to be some misinformation out there.

Both people I spoke to said the white asbestos Chrysotile does not cause cancer but reading recent published scientific studies that is not the case, whilst it is stable in a board when distrubed the fibres can be cancerous and these papers took into account many studies. 

It is also hard to establish a threshold at which it is actually dangerous, most of the studies seem to concentrate on workers in asbestos plants/mines/industries and their family or those living near a source.  Did find a study where people did suffer cancer from asbestos where there only intake was major house renovations but gave no detail on exactly what they did or were exposed to.  There does seem to be a genetic link to the cancer side but the reports I read (again published scientific reports) does suggest there can be a link between a small intake and potential for cancer, not sure how accurate those thresholds quoted are as appreciate in my situation would be very far away from those as your calculations show.  There are a number of posts from people on forums who have had relatives who were only aware of a small exposure that developed mesothelioma but maybe these are outliers but doesn't help on the worry stakes as would be so much cleaner if you could be sure that under the threshold you were fine but doesn;t seem to be always like that.

Saying all of that and worrying myself even more I do think my scenario wasn't all that bad.  Also I remember as a kid playing in abandoned warehouses and all sorts and sure loads of kids have been exposed to loads over the years and there doesn't seem to be the rate which shows incidental loads is a killer other the numbers would be so much higher.

Apologies bit of a rambling post, but problem is I will never know for sure and that is what I hate as like to be in control of situations and this is something can't control.  

There does not seem to be much info on exposure outdoors and clothes and kids, maybe that is beacuse it is not a problem, they are just so tiny that worries me to death done something to harm them.  I can't help feeling my exposure would have been minimal and any fibres that did land on me could well have come off over course of next few hours, it was 7 hours after the incident I put the kids to bed, in that time had driven to asbestos testing place and walked to and from school and was generally active.  I just keep envisaging fibres on me when hugging them and them breathing them in, don't know why I worry so much given it likely the builders who did it probably haven't given it a moments thought.

I know rationally the chances are small and they could easily get a similar load from walking past another renovation or even in school but for some reason just dont seem to be able to move on.  What a bloody nightmare this stuff is.

Lawrence