Hi Lawrence

Sorry to hear about your stresses - I can relate to how you are feeling!

I am no expert, but I have spoken to experts on the phone to try to get rid of my own anxieties (see my earlier posts in this thread).  Based on those conversations, this is how I would think about your situation:

The total lifetime exposure to consider is 25 fibre years/ml.  In other words, if you were exposed to a concentration of 25 fibres/ml, you would have to be exposed to it for a full working year for it to be considered significant.

Let's assume that they spent 1 hour cutting through the board.  I would imagine it was a lot less (probably closer to 3 or 4 minutes), so 1 hour should be more than the worst case scenario.  Let's also assume that the fibres released were the worst case of 10 fibres/ml.  

Let's assume the absolutely completely unrealistic case of someone breathing in all the fibres that were released from cutting the board.  That would equate to an exposure of 10 fibres/ml for 1 hour.  There are 1840 working hours in a year (8 hours/d, 5, days/week, 46 week/year).  25 fibre years / ml is equivalent to 25 x 1840 = 46,000 fibre hours / ml.  The exposure from breathing in ALL the fibres generated from spending an hour cutting through the board is 10 fibres/ml x 1 hour = 10 fibre hours / ml, i.e. 1/4600th of the significant threshold - in other words, you would need to repeat your experience 4,600 times to get a significant exposure. 

Now, remember that that calculation is based on the completely unrealistic scenario of someone breathing in ALL the fibres.  I was told that the fibres are so light that the slightest bit of draft will have them up in the air and away with the airflow.  Given that you were outside and several metres away from the cutting, I would imagine that probably far less than 1% of the fibres ended up on your clothes.  Even if it didn't feel like a windy day, there will obviously have been some air movement!  Let's be pessimistic again and say that 10% of the fibres ended up on your clothes - that still means that someone would need to breathe in all the fibres from your clothes 46,000 times to reach the significant exposure threshold.

If you read my earlier posts too, hopefully the info in there will also reassure you.  It reassured me when I was in your situation!

Hope that helps!

Thanks ever so much for taking the time to reply, I really do appreciate it.  I have been reading an unhealthy amount of information on the subject and did speak to couple of people in industry today and there does seem to be some misinformation out there.

Both people I spoke to said the white asbestos Chrysotile does not cause cancer but reading recent published scientific studies that is not the case, whilst it is stable in a board when distrubed the fibres can be cancerous and these papers took into account many studies. 

It is also hard to establish a threshold at which it is actually dangerous, most of the studies seem to concentrate on workers in asbestos plants/mines/industries and their family or those living near a source.  Did find a study where people did suffer cancer from asbestos where there only intake was major house renovations but gave no detail on exactly what they did or were exposed to.  There does seem to be a genetic link to the cancer side but the reports I read (again published scientific reports) does suggest there can be a link between a small intake and potential for cancer, not sure how accurate those thresholds quoted are as appreciate in my situation would be very far away from those as your calculations show.  There are a number of posts from people on forums who have had relatives who were only aware of a small exposure that developed mesothelioma but maybe these are outliers but doesn't help on the worry stakes as would be so much cleaner if you could be sure that under the threshold you were fine but doesn;t seem to be always like that.

Saying all of that and worrying myself even more I do think my scenario wasn't all that bad.  Also I remember as a kid playing in abandoned warehouses and all sorts and sure loads of kids have been exposed to loads over the years and there doesn't seem to be the rate which shows incidental loads is a killer other the numbers would be so much higher.

Apologies bit of a rambling post, but problem is I will never know for sure and that is what I hate as like to be in control of situations and this is something can't control.  

There does not seem to be much info on exposure outdoors and clothes and kids, maybe that is beacuse it is not a problem, they are just so tiny that worries me to death done something to harm them.  I can't help feeling my exposure would have been minimal and any fibres that did land on me could well have come off over course of next few hours, it was 7 hours after the incident I put the kids to bed, in that time had driven to asbestos testing place and walked to and from school and was generally active.  I just keep envisaging fibres on me when hugging them and them breathing them in, don't know why I worry so much given it likely the builders who did it probably haven't given it a moments thought.

I know rationally the chances are small and they could easily get a similar load from walking past another renovation or even in school but for some reason just dont seem to be able to move on.  What a bloody nightmare this stuff is.

Lawrence

There is definitely loads of misinformation - there is a whole industry dependent on scaring people enough to make them pay to have asbestos professionally dealt with.

Just try to keep it in context - everything you do has some risk associated with it.  There was a girl in the news a few weeks ago who died due to exposure to pollution just from living near the A406 (I think it was) in London.  But then there are the other tens of millions of people who have lived in the same place their whole lives that didn't die from pollution.  We are surrounded by things that *could* kill us - most of the time though, they don't.

I know from experience that once you get a thought like you've got in your head, it can be really hard to convince yourself to see things objectively.

It is true that you will never know for sure, but you can say that about anything.  Tragically, awful illnesses happen to children for no reason sometimes - you can never be sure that will never happen to your own children (I have small children too) but all you can do is hope that it won't happen (and the probablility is massively in favour of it not happening).  I have a friend who died suddenly at the age of 35.  You can never be sure of what's going to happen or not happen, and you can't go through life demanding to be sure - you never can be.

"I know rationally the chances are small and they could easily get a similar load from walking past another renovation or even in school..." - yep - listen to and accept that rationale! 

"...but for some reason just dont seem to be able to move on. " - that "reason" is your own mind - it's not a logical reason (I have been (and am still to some extent) dealing with the same issues as you (things other than asbestos - the asbestos thing is a recent thing on top of that), so what I am saying to you is what I have been saying to myself for a few years now). 

One thing that is real is the stress you can put yourself under from worrying about stuff that isn't worth worrying about.  I try to think about that and tell myself not to create a real risk from worrying about a perceived risk that isn't real.

Yep, it is a nightmare!

Thanks for your post, really do appreciate you taking the time to reply, I am finding it very helpfully and so will others who like me were pointed to this thread, sure many people have a diy asbestos disaster and look for re-assurance.

I have read a lot of scientific studies now, was another long night as trying just to get all the facts straight so can assess risk and try and move on.  Seems dangerous speaking to people at asbestos companies as assumed they would be the ones trying to cause concern but actually was the opposite and both took time out to discuss at length, the problem was some of what they said was actually wrong.

From everything I have read across multiple studies the risk of asbestosis is directly linked to exposure and the figures you posted in your earlier reply are correct and that generally you need some level of occupational exposure, there are of course always outliers who seem to get it at lower levels but on the whole that is not the case.

The other thing that is said a lot and was said by both asbestos companies is that I had the best asebtos in that it was white / chrysotile, from everything I read there is no such thing as good asbestos.  Whilst it is definitely more stable when you cut is with power tools or drill into it the fibres that are released are dangerous.  The other types blue/brown are more easily released but once white is released it does carry danger.  It does have some advantage in that the fibres are curly and don't as easily get into lungs but they can depending on fibre size and are likely to be as dangerous as the others.

I have tried to re-assure my self by reading multiple studies and it is somewhat re-assuring that the studies always seem to quote peiople working in asbestos industries or their partners, there are very few studies on low level non occupational/one off expsoures.

This is where the worry comes in and won't go for me as it is well accpeted that when is comes to cancer / mesothelioma there is no acceptable threshold like there seems to be for asbestosis.  This is an excellent summary of many studies 

The worrying study in there that seems to be one of only a few on non-occupational quoted in there is:

'Exposure to asbestos was studied among 229 malignant mesothelioma patients identified from the Australian Mesothelioma Registry and diagnosed between 2010 and 2012. For 70, no occupational exposure was discovered; these included 37 who had performed a major renovation of their housing with asbestos-containing materials, 35 who had lived in a house during a renovation with asbestos-containing materials, 19 who had lived in a house built of fibro (asbestos cement sheet), 19 who had lived with someone working in an asbestos-exposed job, 12 who had performed brake/clutch work (nonprofessionally), 10 who had visited Wittenoom (the western Australian city CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS / 31 with a crocidolite mine) and 8 who lived in the vicinity of an asbestos mine or asbestos products factory (total does not add to 70 because a number of participants were counted in more than one category)'

The last bracketed bit is relevant as some of those who did renovations also did other risk factors but not all, that means there were some who simply did a renovation project with no known other exposures, I have read the full report on that one and they were given a detailed questionaire.

So it seems that for mesothelioma there is no threshold, now realistically there must be otherwise everyone would be dropping dead of it as sure many people have done some level of diy involving asbestos and also fibres occur naturally.

I wish the last bit wasn't true as everything else I have read indicates some low level one-off type exposure is very low risk to be almost negligible but in terms of mesothelioma that may not be the case - I am not trying to worry people here and also happy to be corrected but have read a number of studies that quote that conclusion.

So where am I with all of this, I can't imagine that I got away with no fibres landing on me given the jig sawing of the cement board albeit up high and at distance and the subsequent dropping and breaking of the board in nearby dump truck.  I have no way of knowing how many and also no way of knowing if any came off over the course of driving to get it tested and wandering around the rest of the day before collectin the kids and putting them to bed.  I will never understand why it didn't occur to me to change but at the time was unaware of the secondary clothing risk.  I also have no way of knowing if when kids hugged me at school pick up or when climbing over me later andy trapped fibres released and breathed in, now gven there is no threshold it still worries me to death and honestly I can't seem to move on.

I am not going to do anymore reading of studies as pretty sure have all the facts.  I just can't get over that I have put the kids at risk, everytime I see them I almost breakdown, I appreciate this is not healthy and there is a chance that worrying over nothing but for me there is a chance and I can't seem to get over that, I have read on cbt and mindfulness, strategies, etc but just can't see how that is going to change the facts or the worry that I have exposed them to carciogenic fibres.  Now I understand there is some background levels and they might also have been exposed at school or by walking past other renovations.

Apologies for another long rambling post and appreciate could well be irrational but when it comes to kids health just seems to switch a lever of worry.  I also appreciate post could be annoying to others as guess other people who are reading this thread are likely to have been exposed more than I have, I am really struggling with this one and everyone speak to say just need to move on but don't seem able to.

Lawrence

Regarding the "that means there were some who simply did a renovation project with no known other exposures," - yes, but a lot of old houses had boilers insulated with blue asbestos.  Ripping off that insulation generates I believe somewhere like 1000 f/ml, and those fibres are 500 times more dangerous than white asbestos (the relative potency has been assessed as 1:100:500 - white:brown:blue).   Also, I think it was used in both loft insulation and cavity insulation, in a form that was really easy to get airborne.

Now, the following was told to me over the phone by an NHS professor, specialising in occupational and environmental respiratory disease.  It's not just something I read on the internet:  Whilst the risk of asbestos-related illness generally requires "many years of industrial exposure", the exception to this is mesothilioma.  HOWEVER - the studies have shown that you DO still need a significant exposure, and in this context, "significant" has been determined to be 3 months solid of breathing in BLUE asbestos fibres for 8 hours a day.

Now (this is from my own logic) consider the potency ratios - that translates to 3 x 500 = 1500 months of breathing in white asbestos fibres 8 hours a day.  1500 months is 125 years, so in the same order of magnitude of the other calculation that says you'd have to scrape artex ceilings and breath in all the fibres continuously for 250 years.

So to summarise I would say that although in theory you could argue you have subjected your kids to some risk, that risk is absolutely insignificant and certainly far less than the risk you subject them to anyway in normal daily life.  You could have a car crash when you take them out in the car.  A fire could start from a faulty plug socket in their bedroom.  They could trip at the top of the stairs and fall down and break their neck.

Obviously the WHO is going to say there is no safe level, in the same way that the NHS would say there is no safe level of smoking - doesn't mean you will get lung cancer if you smoke one cigarette.  Likewise, there is no safe level of driving - it is impossible to get in your car and drive anywhere with zero risk.  There is always some risk, however small.  The point is that driving (for most people) in unavoidable, so you tolerate the risk.  The NHS would see smoking as avoidable, so why take any risk at all?  The WHO say the same for asbestos - where it's avoidable, they aim to avoid it.  Notice that the air in cities is full of asbestos fibres from car brake pads - notice that the WHO don't recommend everyone walks round cities wearing breathing apparatus.

Does that make sense?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply with an excellent post, really is helpful for some one elses view / perspective / research.

Interesting on the ratios, not seen that bfeore and googling that does offer some reassurance.  Also been reading what is considered a safe level of an air test in a house cleared of asbestos and if you multiply up that over size of room there could be a lot of fibres left and conclusion from what I was reading was saying if that level could kill the figures would be much greater.  

I think the published stuff that says no threshold for mesothilioma is unhelpful as clearly there must be some sort of level given asbestos is in the air, not 100% sure on the 3 months of blue asbestos as on another forum there were caes of people who had it with very small exposures.  

I must confess I am completely confused over the measurements as when you read safe level is 0.01 fm/l and I believe I am correct in saying this equates to 1 million fibres in a cubic metre which sounds far worse.   What I can't work out and would appreciate some help is where jig sawing is listed as 2-10 fm/l (worse case 10 million fibres per square metre I presume) over what duration is that ?  Say for example the jigsaw was on for 1 minute how many fibres is that releasing ?  It would help me visualise and probably scare me half to death how many fibres that released.

You are right in that there is risk in everything just devastated I introduced an unnecessary risk as I am sure most people on this forum looking for reassurance.

Many thanks,

Lawrence

Hi Jak99,

Thank you so much for explaining the issues rationally. I have sent you a friend request. Could I get your opinion about my past renovation work and asbestos exposure. Your opinion would be much appreciated. 

Hi - happy to help if I can but please bear in mind I'm no expert - I only know what I know from speaking to a couple of experts.  A couple of weeks ago I knew nothing about all this stuff!

Hi.

I have posted on another section and then came across this discussion.

I am having a bit of a panic.

My grandparents had a leak from their water tank through the sitting room ceiling about 20 years ago. They left the damaged corner and never bothered getting it repaired. Turns out the ceiling has asbestos in it and their was asbestos insulation up around the tank.

I'm now having a complete panic attack as I have been going to see them for a couple of hours every weekend and taking my kids.

My eldest is 8 and I have a 4 year old and 2 year old. I am making myself feel sick thinking they have spent 2 hours a week for years in a room with damaged asbestos.

I don't want to take them until everything is fixed as now I know about it I don't want them near it. My husband thinks I'm over reacting and because it's been like that for 20 years and any fibres that were going to come off would have done so long ago.

Should I talk to a doctor about my worries for my kids? Am I completely over reacting?

Thank you for taking the time to read this. 

Hi

I have just come across this post having had quite a lot of anxiety around asbestos. We have recently been told that we have artex tiles on our extension (our house is Victorian not sure about the extension ) we have lived in the house for a few years. We are looking to get these replaced. However it has set off anxiety about artex as we have artex on 3 of our ceilings, and last year we drilled a hole into what I thought was textured paper in a cupboard but it's not having looked again.

Having read through this chat can I say this has eased my mind a bit and is it best to just fill the holes in, paint and move in from stressing about it given what you have said in your previous post about the risk being low?

thanks